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Air Crashes
3-20-03
Hi my name is Scott Weil. I am I diver with the VA beach EMS Dive
rescue team in VA beach VA. We are a very busy team and we do allot of training. We have
had a lot of talk about dealing with large scale air crash. We have allot of air traffic
in the area anywear from Navy jets to commercial planes. On top of that we also work with
the Coast guard as a Rapid response dive team for most of the East coast. From NC to NJ.
So it is not a matter of what if but of when. Do you have some type of guideline or
contingency plan for such a disaster.Thank you Scott Weil...
3-20-03
Scott - from my experience, unless you have a large and
extremely well trained team conducting operations in
surface supplied diving (helmet, HAZMAT encapsulated
suit, etc), I suggest that you concentrate on the
ability to locate the crash site and rescover victims
on the surface ONLY.
How ever tempting, DO NOT enter a large aircraft
underwater on SCUBA. The skin of an aircraft stretches
and parts - leaving a razor sharp edge.
Do not expect to locate an intact aircraft (except
light aircraft. The amount of debris associated with
any crash is unimaginable, until you have been there.
After assisting with the surface work. You will need a
great command and control team to co-ordinate ALL the
volunteers that WILL arrive. Remember, to properly
police the crime scene.
Use a side scan sonar to locate the entire debris field
and then get the proper resources in to do the recovery.
David Holland
President
UHMS - GLC
3-20-03
I don't mean to start an argument but is this type of recovery REALLY within
the realm of Public Safety Diving? A major commercial airliner crashing into
a body of water ... Only one instance in DC where the plane crashed on
takeoff do I remember a living person being rescued. In the Value Jet crash,
a partial leg was found with the pants still attached. The G-Force at impact
was so great the coins in the pocket had actually bent. There were also no
heads recovered at the site according to the information I revceived from the
onsite consultants.
IF there is a major impact, the ability of PSD team to make recoveris is
nil. The ATF, FBI and NTSB will all show up and one of their groups will be
in charge. Until invited or asked to participate, the local dive team will
not be allowed into the area. THEN, if they are, most likely ONLY law
enforcement teams will be asked to participate. We saw that with the shuttle
disaster in Texas. The teams that were called in to assist were all Law
enforcement - no fire dept dive teams that I know of were asked to
participate.
So the question is simple. Would this situation exceed the training and
equioment capability of the vst majority of PSD teams? Probably. And if that
is true, how can we justify a Risk to Benifit assessment?
Something to think about,
Mark Phillips
3-20-03
Unless you have some poor soul looking out of a window screaming for rescue,
why would you need to go inside a submerged aircraft? Why go into an
enclosed space underwater. After surface rescue and recovery, why not take
your time, think and react in a methodical manner. Why would you want to go
in on scuba? It doesn't matter if it is an aircraft, car, bus, or any other
vehicle. It's still enclosed space underwater and not worth the danger.
Don't go in.
I forgot about the aircraft fuel and hydraulic fluid in the water and what
that might do to your dry suit (remember never to use a wet suit in a
situation like this one), equipment and/or your skin. Don't find out the
hard way.
Just a few late night thoughts.
Thanks,
E. Scott
3-21-03
in about 1988 I tried to organize training for large aircraft in the water first
response. I was in touch with the NTSB and reviewed several cases. I was unable to secure
funding for the course and like so many other things, that idea went by the wayside.
We have had a plane go off a runway into the bay in shallow water either at JFK or LGA
(can't find the reports). Many people died, mostly from drowning. The water was ice cold
and there was some discussion after that some people might have survived if rescuers gave
CPR.
Not all plane crashes are major falls from the sky. When someone overshoots the runway,
a dive team can be very helpful.
Alex Wolff
Proprietor and Technical Director
Sea Wolff Diving Software
3-21-03
You are in a very unique position geographically, your surrounded by
the
primary concentration of US Army engineer divers
http://www.wood.army.mil/577th/Diver/index.htm,
US Navy Mobile diving
salvage unit 2 http://www.cnsl.spear.navy.mil/mdsu2/
(TWA, Monitor, JFK
Jr.), on Little Creek the SEAL teams
http://www.specialforces.net/navy/seals/seal_links.htm,
Explosive Ordinance
Divers http://www.cnsl.spear.navy.mil/eodmu2/mu2index.htm,
and See Bee port
construction unit.
Have you considered approaching any of these teams and tapping the wealth
of knowledge and equipment available?
At the least you should be able to get access to the after action reports
on actual salvage operations and review them for lesson learned, techniques
used, suggested changes...
In the early 1990's we had the Richmond Police dive team on base a few
times for training, I can only speak for the Army but we were always open
to training and support inquiries... (FT Eustis, VA 74th, 511th, 544th,
86th, 569th dive teams)
Jeff Lane
Diving Engineer
Florida State University
3-21-03
This a response to Scott's question
about dive teams working on plane crashes and some of the subsequent comments.
Some of the earlier comments address
many of the considerations you, Scott, need to address. The only addition I would
like to add is to Alex, the plane off the runway that you reference was at JFK.
I suspect someone on this list from New York can provide you with additional information and might even have
been present. I specifically recall watching film of the divers working the scene.
This is a great example of when a dive team is going to be called in to work a
plane crash. I would be curious to see how things worked out in NY.
3-23-03
I have been envoled it about 8 or 10 crashes of light planes and if
you train with lift bags and rigging and have a plan going in, its not a
lot differnet then a car or boat recovery. the most important thing is a
plan. one of the teams that i work with did two crashes in five days one in
the mississippi river and anought in a lake, one was done in the day time
and one at night. the river one we used a crane and barge and the other
lift bags, this one we towed 2 miles to a boat lanch. we train with bags,
sand suckers and rigging. up here its a crime scence untill its released by
the law enfor. agency. we have to be able to do it ourselves.
grumpie
3-23-03
You have to know you are the exception to the rule. Maybe I am skewed
geographically but I know of no team personally who has the funding,
staffing or training to do the kind of recovery operations I talked about.
In the seminars I have attended that dealt with the TWA and Value Jet crashes
-even the crashes I tracked in the old Drowning Reports rarely had teams
respond who were trained, properly equipped and proficient with the skills
necessary to perform such a recovery.
There has to be some teams out there but I'll bet you a steak dinner they are
the minority. My comments were directed towards the general Public Safety
Diving community. If we advocate a PSD team response for Commercial aricraft
crashes in water, we are stepping way out.
I am not saying we will not respond to the scene but I do not believe we
should go with the expectation or recovering the aircraft or bodies - if they
are submerged. We can put a boat in the water. We can put safety personnel at
strategic locations and we can offer support for the investigative agencies.
IF those agencies ask for our divers and IF they are properly protected and
equipped and trained ect, I can see assisting in the recovery efforts. I
cannot envision them performing the operation themselves though.
A commercial airliner crash is what I referred to in my original post. A
small private plane is not the same thing. I think there has been a surge in
PSD thought in the last few years that has put some issues of training too
far in front. We all tend to believe we are indestructible and fearless when
it comes to PSDiving - because we went to a class and learned how to do
stuff. Fresh out of a class and a new generation of experts are on the prowl
looking for something to test their skills. I admire the tenacity of these
folks but always wonder how long the enthusiasm will last. For most it lasts
until their first actual body recovery. Body Recovery. That is what we do.
BODY RECOVERY. Why? Because a body floating down the river offers a hazard
to the general public I am sworn to serve and protect? No - in an hour it
will be out of my jurisdiction. Because there is a chance of saving them?
Bloated and floating - not a chance.
We do what we do for the survivors and we do what we do with as little risk
of death to us personally as possible. The training and equipment required to
do this kind of work help us improve our skills and abilities and decrease
the personal risk. If we confuse the issue of PSDiving with anything other
than recovery we add elements of risk to our divers. So what about RESCUE
diving?
We always hope for a rescue but the reality is this. The vast majority of
dive teams will never get close to an actual underwater rescue. In our city,
our Fire Department and EMS can respond medical assistance with Basic Life
Support equipment in under 4 minutes - anywhere inside the city limits. For
us to claim to be a dive rescue team, we sould have to be able to respond a
dive team to a submerged victim with the same time periods - we cannot do it-
regardless of how much or how often we train. But we still practice and
train for rescue. Our emphasis however is based on the rescue and successful
recovery of our own divers. This same training carries over to our public. We
want to make a submerged victim rescue. We train, plan and have EMS protocols
in place - just in case.
We cannot concieve we are capable of a commercial airliner recovery operation
or that we have the ability to perform rescues. Granted, I have never been to
one. I have only seen videos, photos and interviewed some of the divers who
did work some of these scenes. I may be mistaken and may get blasted for
offering my opinion but that is nothing new. I do not feel a PSD team should
consider this type of catastrophic event a part of their duty response. With
very, very few exceptions it would be beyond the capabilities and training of
most PSDive teams.
Contingency plans for an air crash of this magnitude should be made in heavy
air traffic areas. These plans do not have to include local dive teams as the
primary source of labor or underwater work.
Now, if we are going to get the thread to recovery of a small, private
aircraft - I am onboard. The ability to recover a small plane should be
within the scope of operations of a PSDive team providing they have the
proper equipment, training and proficency for the job.
I am waiting for the Gulf to warm up a bit more. Equipment checked, Speargun
has new bands and line and the Red Snaper are worried .... It will not be
long now.
Scuba diving CAN be a fun recreational activity too. It seems like A lot of
PSDivers forget that sometimes.
Always your friend,
Mark Phillips
3-24-03
Two things to
think about. 1) if it is commercial, local dive teams will not be of much use.
surface rescue is about all you can expect.
2) and this is very important. Aircraft fuel is highly explosive, very volitole and
very quickly attacks anything that is clothed in less than commercial suits designated for
this type of fuel.. You do not even want to go near this stuff in wetsuits unless you want
a body rash from hell......
I will only add this to what Mark and others have already posted so very well..
Chuck, NCURT
3-24-03
The teams i work with use aga and masks viking dry suits. We
have a major airport mpls-st paul international. the problem is that no
one wants to talk about it. the airport is at the intersection of two large rivers. we
dive dry all year around. the dive teams i work with have had a 32 hour haz-mat
class , so they have some idea want to look and for. we do not have a
commercial dive op here to call on in a hurry.
grumpie
3-24-03
Regarding airports and dive teams, unless the regulations have
changed, all commercial airports with locations "near a significant body of
water" are required to have emergency teams on standby to react in case of a crash in
the water. Our local airport (Tri-Cities, Tennessee) chooses to ignore the
regulations, even after offers from local teams to act as their standby teams. We're
all just kinda waiting for the first big crash into the water to see what the reaction is
by airport officials.
3-24-03
Exactly......but when
meeting with the A/P authorities they view this as surface operations. To meet the
regulation, our international airport has surface based teams and equipment but do not
view underwater "rescue" as a practicable offering. (and they may be
right) Their view on underwater recovery is simply commercial and beyond the local
"rescue" teams ability. They may be right here also...
I know what we would like to do but for the commercial I doubt we can really help.
The funding is not going to be there for us. If it is to be done it will have
to come from the A/P authority (jurisdiction) and staffed and budgeted by them.
Chuck
3-24-03
I am curious about the regulations. Are they located in the FAA regulations?
Do you know exactly where they can be found? I ask because our team would
love the opportunity to go to BWI here in Baltimore Md. and seek their assistance in
maintaining and further equipping our team for a possible water ditch in the Chesapeake
Bay.
David Ritchie
Anne Arundel County Fire Department
Dive Rescue Team
3-24-03
You are absolutely correct about the UsAir flight that went off the edge and broke in
half in New York. This crash was used by the late Ray Downey in his book The
Rescue Company to illustrate sub-surface rescue work. Battalion Chief John
Norman of the FDNY Special Operations Command would be the guy who has the most collected
information on this incident. I believe the divers were able to do good things at
this incident. The key to personal/personnel safety in this type of operation is the
same as any other vehicle crash...how hazzards are mitigated (the stability of the vehicle
and the surrounding unfriendly environment and the level of PPE and training).
3-24-03
I think some of you are biting off more than you can chew. Don't expect a
local dive team to handle a large plane crash. I was assigned to the
Metropolitan Police, Special Operations Division, Harbor Branch when the Air
Florida, Flight 90 struck the 14th Street Bridge on January 13th, 1982 in
Washington D.C. We were a full time dive and water recovery unit including
1) Lt, 3) Sgts, and 21) Officers. We immediately realized that the scene
was beyond our capabilities even though 3/4 of us actually had been through
Navy dive schools. By picking up a phone, we had over 200 military hard hat
divers on the site within 24 hrs. These consisted of Navy Harbor Clearance
Unit 2 (Norfolk, Va.), US Coast Guard Atlantic Strike Team (Cape May, NJ),
Navy EOD instructor staff (Indian Head, Md), and US Army Corps of Engineers
(Ft. Belvoir, Va). With all these resources on hand, it still took 2 weeks
to recover most of the wreckage and all the bodies. When a young military
diver brought a victim to the surface, my unit would take legal custody and
remove it from the water and transfer it to the temporary morgue. My unit
didn't dive the site until the end of April. We were cleaning up any
remaining debris to sanitize the site. Believe it or not, we actually had
to prevent sport divers from entering the area to look for souvenirs. In
the initial 2 weeks of diving, we recovered 77 victims. Each of the
military units had a primary responsibility depending on their expertise. I
firmly believe that there was no possibility of my unit adequately handling
the event even though we were professionals.
Mike Gutterman
MPDC, Retired
Gutterman Diving Services
3-24-03
Hi Mike, I'm not saying that as a dive team we should go looking for a 747
to crash in your water hole, but by looking at the big picture and training
towards it. you will look at the small picture be able to know what you can
.
grumpie
3-25-03
I'm probably going to raise a lot of hackles, but here
goes nothing! Please take this as merely food for
thought - introspection that we so often fail to do.
I must agree wholeheartedly with Mr Gutterman. With few
exceptions, local dive teams are in no way trained nor
equipped for large-scale air crash recoveries.
Unfortunately, we allow our egos to overpower our
common sense and think we can handle these. The reality
is that the VERY, VERY, VERY vast majority of these
calls are recoveries. I cannot remember a crash where
there was a rescue, other than the one in DC.
I have been on calls (none of which, fortunately, were
air crashes) in which our team was called out, but we
did not make the dive. Instead, we recommended to the
IC that a more experienced team from outside our county
be brought in.
It is really tough to look that IC in the eye and tell
him that this is beyond our capability, but I'd rather
have to take any criticism for that rather than explain
what happened to a brand new widow!
It's tough to sit back and watch the "big boys" roll
onto the scene with all their fancy equipment and all
there experience and take over. It's hard to be the
bastard step-child, but we just gotta do it!
If we, as the Public Safety Diving Community, continue
to think of ourselves as the invincibles, as the end of
all ends, as the only game in town, then we will be
forever damned to continue to bury our heroes long
before their time, victims of our egos!
'Nuff said. Down off my soap box! Heal!
And if it feels appropriate in your heart, say a prayer
or two for all those young heroes protecting our way of
life so far away from home. Our problems here pale to
theirs!
Dave Couvelha
US Army (Retired, but still serving!)
Leavenworth Co (KS) Water Rescue Team
3-25-03
You can not have it both ways, viewing a large scale salvage operation as within the
operational capabilities of a public safety diving team working under the commercial
diving exemption 1910.401(a)(2)(ii) is blatantly disregarding the regulations not to
mention putting peoples lives at risk unnecessarily.
I have included a previous posting in this message and would like to
offer a bit more information on the interpretation of the public safety portion. Some
might find this information interesting or helpful:
At underwater intervention 2-10-2003 the OSHA director of
maritime safety and compliance gave an informational discussion on the commercial diving
regulations and applicability to public safety divers specifically:
“To fall under the exemption there must be an obvious
threat to Life, limb, or the potential for severe environmental damage requiring immediate
response”
“Presidential executive order number 12196 allows OSHA to
regulate federal agencies”
"training / instructional dives not meeting the recreational, AIR,
SCUBA exemption fall under the commercial diving standard"
Jeff Lane
3-25-03
For those interested, the FAA regulations can be found under:
www.1.faa.gov/arp/150acs.cfm#airport_safety....once in the list of Advisory Circulars,
scroll down to: 150/5210-13a (Water Rescue Operations).
Obviously, most of us don't have the level of equipment or training for major scale
recovery of commercial aircraft after a crash, BUT as we all know, the call is going to be
put out for HELP at such a scene, especially within the first couple of hours. Short
of staying home and pleading a lack of expertise, we could all face such a scenario if we
operate "near a significant body of water". Training to a response level
that could be critical to those victims that we MIGHT help can't hurt us either as
individual teams or as a PSD community. Calls for mutual aid from our neighboring
teams WILL happen and if we can prepare for some level of response we'll all be better off
for it...
3-25-03
Good morning, question where do
we draw the line? we are not in this to do salvage work, but some are in law info.
and need to recover a car or a gun for evidence. some are strictly rescue,
then some have to do both. it would be really nice to be able to show up with 4
pieces of equipment and 10 scuba set ups but in most places that not true. if you
have deep pockets that's great.but most places if you get 10 people including
divers your in heaven.
grumpie
3-25-03
Just in case some folks think all plane crashes result in
little-bitty
pieces...
FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE-EMERGENCYNET NEWS SVC.-03/23/92-0730
USAIR PLANE CRASH KILLS 21, EXPLODES
IN BALL OF FLAMES
By: Clark Staten, EMT-P
New York, NY - (ENN) Yesterday at approximately 9:30 p.m. EST, a US Air Fokker-28 (Flt.
405) with 51 persons onboard took-off from NYC's La Guardia airport for Cleveland on a
continuation of a flight returning vacationers and business people from Florida.
Unfortunately, it never had a chance to arrive in Ohio. An eyewitness, who lives near the
airport, described what happened as "lighting up his living room" as a
"huge fireball" engulfed the plane.
Another eyewitness described the plane as "somersaulting" as it tumbled
through the top of an airport building and slid into the freezing waters of nearby
Flushing Bay. A large fire ensued in the rear portion of the plane and it disintegrated on
impact. Rescue officials said that it was still burning moments later when the first NYC
Fire and EMS vehicles arrived on the scene. Large amounts of fire- retardant foam were
then applied to the still burning wreck, as firefighters and paramedics threw up roof
ladders to attempt to gain access to the entrapped victims.
Initial reports by NYC Fire Department spokeman Jerry Sanford indicated that the scene
looked like "something out of a Steven Spielberg movie". A NYC Port Authority
Police officer, Charles Torres, was quoted as saying "It's chaos...It's controlled
chaos...but we think we're prepared for it". Another Port Authority airport worker
was aghast, and was quoted by USA Today as saying; "I've never seen anything like
this before...there were bodies...six or seven bodies...I saw them laying them next to the
plane".
As Emergency Medical Service (EMS) workers rushed to set up a Triage and Treatment
area, divers from the NYC Police Emergency Services Unit and New York City Fire Department
suited up in "Exposure Dive Suits" in order to allow them to enter the near
freezing water of the Flushing Bay. According to EMS workers at the scene, several people
had escaped the wreckage on their own and were wandering around the crash site in a dazed
and shocked condition. Police helicopters and Port Authority boats were seen scanning the
bay for "swimmers", or those that might have been thrown clear of the wreckage.
Many of the persons rescued by emergency workers were suffering smoke inhalation and
burns. According to official reports, the pilot of the plane was "crushed",
entrapped, and submerged under water in the cockpit of the fuselage of the plane. He was
unable to be rescued. The co-pilot was saved and transported to one of three area
hospitals, where he is hospitalized in serious, but stable condition.
A total of twenty-eight (28) patients were transported to Bellevue Hospital in
Manhattan, Elmhurst Hosptial and Booth Memorial Hospital in the Queens. Several patients
were said to have suffered extensive burns and were being transfgered to specialized burn
care units for treatment. At least one patient was said to have suffered an amputation of
a limb and was undergoing surgery to attempt to sustain his life.
Rescue efforts were reported to have gone on until early morning hours, when rising
tides and hypothermia caused rescue supervisors to pospone further attempts at recovery
until the morning light. Several rescuers were reportedly being treated for cold injuries
and hypothermia, as bodies were still being pulled from the frigid water after three and a
half hours (3 1/2). Rescuers were also said to have suffered many minor lacerations from
metal edges, as they worked to remove people from the shredded portions of the fuselage,
which were described as "being like razors".
Investigators from the NYC Police Department, Port authority, Fire Department, National
Transportation Safety Board and the Federal Aviation Administration were reportedly
combing the wreckage at first light, attempting to help establish the exact cause of the
tragic crash. One official said that the scene reminded him of a similar incident that had
occured on the same runway in 1989, when US Air Flt. 5050 aborted a takeoff and crashed
into the East River. Two people died from that incident and another 45 were injuried.
3-25-03
The Potomac crash is another example, US Army dive teams conducted the salvage
operation for this one...http://www.roadstothefuture.com/AirFlorida_SubwayDis.html
A while ago, I remember watching and hearing about the guy who kept going in to
rescue the others until finally not making it himself...
Jeff
3-25-03
I agree that this instance and others similar to it offer survivor changes. But this
was an that happened on take off and
was not a crash from significant altitude. This and similar
s are in line with what we were talking
about but not the same as the Value Jet, Air Egypt, Air Alaska or TWA crashes.
A crash on take off on landing IS someting that disaster teams at or near major
airports train for. The idea that crews could use ground ladders to help recscue victims
gives some idea that the of the
impact was not necessarily in itself.
The point I have been atempting to make is that the vast majority of dives teams are NOT
qualified, trained, equiped, staffed or funded to undertake a recovery operation for what
is historicaly seen as a 100% ity crash of a commercial
airliner. This started because it seemed like there was some thought that a PSD team was
supposed to respond to such an incident to perform rescues ... Light aircraft, small
private planes - maybe. And if attempted, proper protctive gear, equipment, training etc
must be in place to afford a positive risk to benifit analysis.
These are the key elements I got out of the article. I appreciate the article.
**
Yesterday at approximately 9:30 p.m. EST, a US Air Fokker-28 (Flt. 405) with 51 persons
onboard took-off from NYC's La Guardia airport for Cleveland on a continuation of a flight
returning vacationers and business people from Florida. Unfortunately, it never had a
chance to arrive in Ohio ......
Another eyewitness described the plane as "somersaulting" as it tumbled through
the top of an airport building and slid into the freezing waters of nearby Flushing
Bay.....
as firefighters and paramedics threw up roof ladders to attempt to gain access to the
entrapped victims.....
A NYC Port Authority Police officer, Charles Torres, was quoted as saying "It's
chaos...It's controlled chaos...but we think we're prepared for it".....
divers from the NYC Police Emergency Services Unit and New York City Fire Department
suited up in "Exposure Dive Suits" in order to allow them to enter the near
freezing water....
Police helicopters and Port Authority boats were seen scanning the bay for
"swimmers", or those that might have been thrown clear of the wreckage.....
One official said that the scene reminded him of a similar incident that had occured on
the same runway in 1989, when US Air Flt. 5050 aborted a takeoff and crashed into the East
River. Two people died from that incident and another 45 were injuried .....
3-25-03
“To fall under the
exemption there must be an obvious threat to Life, limb, or the potential for severe
environmental damage requiring immediate response”
I presume that this came from Steve Butler. It is the same answer he gave me
years ago when I wrote to OSHA and asked for clarification on the exemption. I am
glad someone else has heard this from him...
Chuck
3-25-03
Obviously, most of us don't have the level of equipment or training for major scale
recovery of commercial aircraft after a crash,
So why would we subject our divers to an environment for which we have neither
the training or the equipment just because we exist.???
Would you go into a burning house without bunker gear? Would you go to war without a gun?
Chuck
3-25-03
Lets move on. If you aren't properly
trained, adequately equipped or the conditions are questionable, don't do it. Ego's will
be crushed and pride will take a lickin', but we can all discuss and debate it here the
next day.
3-25-03
The five survivors in the Air Florida
crash were picked up by a US Park Police helicopter off the top of the ice. Local
volunteer fire/rescue dive teams showed up at the scene that afternoon, but we did not
allow them to enter the water due to the extreme conditions. The military divers all
wore KMB-10, DSI Superlite, or Navy Mk 12 helmets.
Mike Gutterman
Gutterman Diving Services
MPDC, Retired
3-25-03
The gentleman that you were referring
to was also passenger. He did not keep going in. He was already out there and
kept passing the US Park Police helicopter ring buoy to other 5 on the surface until he
succumbed to extreme hypothermia and went under. Of the 77 victims, he was the only
one that died of drowning.
Mike G
3-26-03
Nope...But if the fire guys needed someone to handle duties outside
the hot zone, or if the war guys needed some logistical help, our team would be there...!
Point is, help is going to be requested, and most open-minded people would respond
with whatever talents they had.
3-26-03
Point is, help is going
to be requested, and most open-minded people would respond with whatever talents they had
It is not a response issue, we do have some talents. The issue is what we can do and what
we cant do. Never go beyond the limits of training or equipment. Yes we will
go if called but also know when to call for assistance. Our divers are not the only ones
out there.
Chuck
3-27-03
Within the last 35 years, we have had three commercial aircraft's crash into
the ocean off the Los Angeles Airport. Two crashed within two weeks of each
other, and yes there were survivors.
I'm not sure exactly what information you are requesting but I have a
Air-Sea disaster plan approved by the FAA/USCG/Los Angeles County Sheriff's
Department/Los Angeles Police Department/Los Angeles County Fire
Department/Highway Patrol/Chief Medical Examiner/LAX Air traffic controllers
and Beaches and Harbors. I would highly recommend that you contact the
local law enforcement of USCG representative and see what plan they have
available. This would give you an idea where your team stands as far as
available resources. These plans are rarely updated and they may not even
have you down in the disaster plan.
I have heard other comments regarding fuel in the water and the feasibility
of divers entering. Jet fuel is extremely hazardous to any rubber parts not
to mention what it feels like on your skin after long periods of time. Each
situation requires evaluations to determine if anyone should enter the
water. For example: In our case we have been able to enter the water after
a short period of time due to the wind and currents.
Since our responsibilities includes emergency boat operations, our
responsibilities are higher than the norm. So getting involved in an
operation of this magnitude is one of our duties and responsibilities. The
mere fact that we are also divers and the diving portion of our operation in
a situation like this is secondary and only done after careful evaluation.
If you check with your local agency and you are not satisfied with the
information, I will send you a copy of ours but I ask that you request it
only as an absolute necessity as I do not have it on computer, it is
extremely lengthy and would require numerous fax pages.
Detective Estevan Martinez
Los Angeles County Sheriff's Department
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