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Dogs
11-11-02
Does anyone have any experience with dogs involved in underwater SAR?
11-11-02
Yes, yes, yes! What aspect are you interested in?
11-11-02
We have helped train dogs to smell for humans from a boat as it did search
patterns on a lake. You put a diver in the water and try to disperse the
bubbles so they are not obvious. I would suggest that you check with some
dog search teams for more information about who is in your area and how they
can be contacted.
Ron Durheim
Deputy Chief Mat-Su Dive rescue
11-11-02
Years ago on I believe it was the second day of a body recovery we
brought in a team of cadaver dogs. Worked them from a boat and the
shore line keeping the two dogs separated when they were working. Both
dogs alerted to the same area, 1/4 mile away from the last seen point &
not searched by divers. Found the body within 25 feet of where the dogs
alerted.
Bill Schultz
Middlesex County
New Jersey
11-11-02
How effective are they and in what types of situations?
Should divers be pulled from the water to allow dogs to do a search?
11-11-02
We usually call in a
cadaver team of dogs even if we find we dont need them. This keeps us in better terms
politically with the other groups. We have used them on still water, but on moving water I
have seen too many teams focus on the downstream hits.
I am not a K9 expert, but
this summer I was called in to a scene that had multiple divers in a river bend in a 8
knot current. No redundancy, no lines, and rec regs. All because the dogs hit on the
whirlpool. I mentioned to the IC I would like to search upstream, and backed this up with
a shore interview that placed the victim where I wanted to deploy my divers, but the body
floated first.
Our dog friends are
a great resource, but sometimes must be read between the lines....If I remember, a team
out of Michigan I believe was Great Lakes K9 S+R?
Anybody ever hear of
them?
Steve Treinish
MFD Dive Rescue
11-11-02
We have had two successful incidents this year, that the dogs
indicated
where to start searching. If you don't have a good point last seen the
dogs can be a big help. Without a PLS we normally let the dogs go
first till we get an alert, run sonar, than divers.
Here are some stories
http://ovsar.org/1River.html
http://ovsar.org/MissingMan.html
http://ovsar.org/courier.htm
http://ovsar.org/North%20Side%20Lake.htm
Be Safe,
Cliff Weaver
Battalion Chief
Evansville Fire Department
Search Manager
Ohio Valley Search and Rescue
11-11-02
As for the dogs, we have recently used them on a dive call, a marker
was
dropped at a spot where both dogs hit, now let it be known it was around a
130+ feet at this spot, the next day the NYSP dove on this spot and
recovered the body within 4 minutes within 10 feet of the marker, if it was
not for fading day light we would have sent a crew down that day on the
marker.
I am very fimilar with the dogs, and the do's and dont's as I a paramedic,
Diver, member of the dog training team, and soon to be new handler. If I
can help anyone out I will, if I can't I will get the question answered by
one of my Technical training crew members.
As for dogs and water searchs, I feel it is to under used and will be have a
big place in times to come in locating and finding people. I feel these
dogs after seeing them work, train and play, want to do nothing but find the
missing person, no mater if its in the water, woods, or rocks. The nose
will find them, that is a common saying we are using when training these
dogs. Less then a month ago it was proved, while on a training session.
Paul Little,
11-12-02
Yes, we have about 10 years
experience in the Gulf Coast and inland waters of Louisiana, Mississippi, and Alabama.
Jim Brugh
IPSD
Iberia
Parish, Louisiana
11-12-02
I am a PSD and a dog handler. There are very few good water search dogs.
Most handers do not train for water search. My suggestion is to train
with your local dog teams before you need their services. This will allow
you to evaluate their performance. You also should inquire if they have
been certified or tested in water search. I'm all for using dogs, just
make sure they have received the proper training and testing.
John Harkness
Madison VA.
11-12-02
Hi all,
It's great to see all the input relating to search dogs. I thought I'd bring
up a related topic: Let's say the search is in water moving 2 knots and the
dogs point to area X which is 40 feet deep. Obviously the dogs are not
smelling the gases right below them since the water that began right below
them is now downstream. So the question is, for that scenario, how far
upstream would the body be from area X? Where is the hottest search
location?
For those of you that are new on the group and missed discussions on
currents about 6 months ago let's take a quick review of currents. I don't
know if we have those specific previous postings on our website yet
(www.teamlgs.com) but you can look, Brian is adding
them when he has a
chance.
Measuring water current in knots instead of mph is recommended because we
can use knots far more easily. There are approximately 6000 feet per
nautical mile. Divide that by 60 minutes and we get: 1 knot = 100 feet/min
That is a very useful number. When calculating how fast water is moving drop
something in and see how far it moves in 30 seconds. Let us say that it
travels 55 feet in 30 seconds. That means it would have traveled 110 feet in
one minute. The water is therefore moving 1.1 knots. Yes, the surface
current is often moves faster than the bottom, so this technique gives you a
maximum. Sometimes the bottom current is faster, or even in the opposite
direction of the surface. Knowing that comes down to knowing your water -
use weighted milk jugs with attached buoys to see what happens to current
below the surface.
Another neat trick if the surface current is very different than deeper
currents, is to re-enact what would happen to a body by making milk jugs
slightly negatively buoyant so that they drop about 2 feet per second in
freshwater and about 1- 1 1/2 feet per second in salt water. These drop
rates are similar to a drowned victim's body's drop rate.
If you do not have the calculations on how to use currents and depths to
calculate the most likeliest place the body is on the bottom email us
directly at az@teamlgs.com and ask for the "where
is the body" article.
So back to the original question: the dogs mark spot x. The water is moving
at 2 knots. The body is laying in 40 feet of water. How far upstream from X
is the body most likely to be? Even if you do not have an answer, think
about how you would go about figuring an answer out without actually putting
a test object in the water and having dogs find it. Think about things you
already know as a diver.
Digger, your point about going upstream and the safety aspect are definitely
right on! Thank you.
Have fun with it,
stay safe,
Andrea
Andrea Zaferes
Lifeguard Systems & RIPTIDE
11-12-02
Wow, thanks for all the input on the application of SAR dogs to a drowning
situation.
It seems to be the general consensus that they can be helpful in the right
circumstances and when the proper analysis is used to interpret the
information they provide.
We have a dog team, here in Delaware, that is interested in working with the
divers.
We had one incident several years ago. Several dive teams responded to a
scene on a Friday evening and spent hours searching, for a man that walked
into the Delaware river, without success. The next day we responded. One
of the local dog teams responded and brought several dogs.
They created havoc on the scene, or should I say they just made things
difficult. They tied up several boats while we shuttled them around. They
"hit" on numerous sites in the area the other teams were searching. The hits
were far apart and would have required lots of dive time to check each of
them.
On Saturday when we arrived we started with the basics. Something not done
well the night before. We located the witnesses, brought them to the scene
and placed them at the same spot they were the day before. We put a swimmer
in the water and were able to triangulate a position. We dropped a diver
down and found the body within 5 feet.
This area did not have a significant current and was not contaminated with
gasoline or other chemicals. The water was not deep 5 to 10 feet. The
water temperature was in the 70's as I recall. It was what I would consider
a rather ideal condition for the dogs.
One dogs "hit" in the area where the body was eventually found. It also
"hit" in other areas.
Currently, our team is going to initiate a joint response on all calls with
the Dogs. I don't know how many will respond, how long it will take them to
get there, whether they will be "certified." I am concerned that we might
be putting all our eggs in one basket. Looking to the dogs when we should
be looking to the basics! Andrea's point is critical. Since determining
the current and its effect is a basic skill even with dogs we might be
searching in the wrong location.
I appreciate all the input. The fact that many of you have had success with
dogs give me some comfort.
Tom Gerard
New Castle, DE
11-14-02
Thomas Gerard wrote:
>On Saturday when we arrived we started with the basics. Something not done
well the night before. We located the witnesses, brought them to the scene
and placed them at the same spot they were the day before. We put a swimmer
in the water and were able to triangulate a position. We dropped a diver
down and found the body within 5 feet.
I am a PSD emeritus -- time and work-mandated distance have physically but
certainly not emotionally separated me from my former PSD buddies. This
anecdote reminds me of the MVP of my former dive team.
I don't know how this guy did it, but his interview techniques with
witnesses saved us a whole bunch of diver down time. He could sort out the
last-seen point from a welter of confused stories from hysterical onlookers
and was spot-on in his accuracy.
No special training that I know of. In his working life he's a beverage
distributor, but he is sure good at what he does. If you have or can find
someone like that to respond with your team, s/he may be worth a whole bunch
of dive time, a real "force multiplier" and in a hazardous diving
environment, maybe even a life-saver. Could be a cop, could be a crisis
intervention specialist -- or maybe a guy who sells beer for a living who
just happens to have a God-given talent. But worth more than their weight
in gold.
Jim Carroll
11-14-02
Dogs Divers and bodies
First if you are going to use dogs get the divers out of the water.
1. the divers bubbles will distract the dog, unless he has been trained to
ignore them. You will not be able to disrupt them enough to guarantee it
won't happen.
2. bubble dynamics at the surface can disturb any other gases that are in
the same area while effecting surface tension of the water could be enough
to change the way the dog perceives the sent.
3 .if the divers are downstream of the body or training cadaver the diver
bubbles will rise faster than the gas from the body hence the two gases
could run into each other and dilute. There by again screwing up some of
the senses of the dog.
Second weather,
are you dealing in standing / still water or moving water, wind speed,
direction and deflection will have a lot to do with how the dog reacts vs.
where the body may actually be.
1. a 5 knot wind will move the gas 500 feet a minute or 8.5 foot per second.
That is not a lot of wind yet it is a large area.
2. wind can move 10 to15 degrees off center with out you even noticing it.
Where was the wind exactly when the dog sounded or presented.
3. lots of things are happening on the water surface and those effects
change through out the day. Not only wind changes but temperature effects
how gases move across the water surface. A small smoke flare can really
help you understand what the air is doing over the water after the dog has
presented.
4. you need the handler to tell you before you go, in these conditions what
is the average distance from the object when the dog presents.
Third moving water,
1. 1 knot of moving water moves at approximately 100 ft. per minute or 1.6
ft per second. Gas will be moved in direct proportion to its rising rate. In
other words gas will travel down stream in direct proportion to the speed of
the water there fore it will not rise directly to the surface.
2. decaying body gas may be in a liquid or solid / bubble state or may
change from liquid to bubble as it rises. This is basically an unknown
rate. however!!!
3. We do know that based on Commander Joe Bodner and the U.S. Navy studies
in Groton CT. in the late 40s to early 50s how a standard air bubble rises.
We know that they found a small exhaled bubble would rise at an approximate
rate of 60 ft. per minute or 1 ft. per second. Obviously as the bubble rose
it expanded and hence went faster. Their studies were based on the fact
that the diver was inhaling and exhaling and would remain under his last
smallest exhaled bubble. Bodner actually presented this study at the
Boston Sea Rovers dive clinic in the early 50s.
Basically we know that a small exhaled bubble rises at approximately 1ft.
per second. Many of us have seen small decay type bubbles at the surface
that are not very large and after recovery of the body found that the
bubbles were in the direct ascent area of the body. We have also seen small
surface bubbles from other decaying objects or bubbles that rose after we
threw an item in for search training that may have disturbed other decaying
items. Their rate of ascent is still unknown however we observe that there
average surface size is small than a typical divers little bubbles. In fact
if you place a diver on the bottom in 15 to 20 ft. and have him release
small bubbles one or two at a time you will note that they are a bit larger
than the average decaying bubbles we see at the surface.
Theory;---
We could there fore hypothesize that if the bubbles are smaller then they
are rising slower, and if it is in a liquid state as it leaves the body it
could even move slower. As we try to find a perimeter of where the body
could be based on the dogs presentation. Since basic physics tell us
smaller bubbles rise slower perhaps we could start by cutting the speed of
rise in half to a 1/2 a ft. a second. Again all we are trying to do is
gain a perimeter as to were the body might be.
Now combine the concept that the gas from the body laying in 40 ft. of water
could be rising between a 1/2 ft. to 1 ft. per second, (which ever or
portion there of you like) while in a 2 knot current it is moving down river
at about 200 ft. per minute or 3.2 ft per second. By the time the gas hits
the surface an approximate time span of 40 to 80 or more seconds has passed.
In 40 seconds the gas traveled 135 ft.- in 80seconds 265 ft.- now presume
the dog normally presents with in 50 to 100 ft. in these conditions. Now
where do you start or at least where are reasonable perimeters for the
search.
You as divers need to work with the dog and its handler a lot. You both
need to understand each others unique problems and variables. If I were
going to work with a dog I would like to watch it work on land many times
first and begin to create a dairy as to how it responds and then carry that
over to water training operations. Put a gentile fire fan on the water and
see how the dog works to the wind, and how the dog presents to objects that
you know where they are, combined with conditions that you can create and
control. Do not expect the dog to be responsible for the failure.
Let me go on record saying I really like dogs and I have seen several that
are in-credible but the ability for the handler and I to communicate was in
my mind the key.
Butch Hendrick
Lifeguard Systems & RIPTIDE
11-16-02
Tom,
Sorry about taking so long to respond to this
posting we having been running like crazy around here.
Why does it always get busy when the water temp goes
down? :) In response to your question about working
with dogs. We love them. They have been a big help
on some of our ops but we don't rely on them 100
percent. What we do is we have a certified sonar tech
from Lowance electronics on our team. We will run the
dog and the sonar in a boat together. We run two
boats set up like this working a grid pattern. We
look for "hits" from the dogs and from the sonar. We
let one back the other up. The sonar system that we
are using is capable of recording your sonar chart.
The sonar tech therefore can read the chart from the
other boat without having to be in that boat. Simply
take out the mmc card and put in the puter and replay
the log. We have found this system works great, it
may take a little more time with the dogs and the
sonar but we spend less time diving on dead fish this
way.
Thanks,
Michael Bulmer
Northeast Oklahoma Underwater Recovery
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